An Incredible Moment with Lazarus (John 11:1-44)
This is another one of my favorite passages in Scripture. Maybe because of the certain hope it shows me. Truly it shows me a life regiven. In fact, this will be a difficult post because I have so much to share. To condense it down, well, I'll give it my best shot. May my recall be poor! ;D
Lazarus and Jesus' relationship must have been very, very close. Lazarus must have been a very special man, and not just to his sisters. He was dearly loved. The message sent by his sisters sums it up clearly, "Lord, the one you love is sick" (John 11:3, emphasis mine). I'm sure everyone, Lazarus' sisters and the disciples, thought that Jesus would get there in time to heal him. After all, Christ said to the disciples, "this sickness will not end in death" (John 11:4). However, God had something far more significant in store.
I'm sure if we had our own way we would just rather life functioned like a dot-to-dot drawing. Where all we needed to do was to go to each dot in the order they are meant. We have a sense of what the picture will be but the details don't fully emerge until all the dots are connected. But, that isn't the way God works, is it? God's will doesn't always proceed in a straight line. I don't always see a clear connection between point A and point B. Isn't it neat how God wraps up my good with your good and the good of both of us with the good of others? The plot lines of our individual stories weave together to form Him master plan. I guess what I'm trying to say is each of our stories matter to Jesus, just as the individual stories of Mary, Martha and Lazarus mattered to Him.
Why would Jesus allow such sorrow to come to a family who loved Him so much? Why would He withhold His power to heal when He had healed so often before? We are not guaranteed any explanations however, we are given a promise: "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away" (Revelation 21:4).
For me, I tend to want rational reasons for everything. But, I have found out that God's love sometimes tarries for our good and His glory. Think of the blind man and the rabbis questioning of Jesus who had sinned, this man or his parents? Because of a fallen world, a man was born blind. But because of that man, Jesus Christ was glorified. We are cherished and highly loved.
Another lesson from Lazarus that I pull out is God's ways are not our ways, but His character is still dependable. If anyone is struggling to hang on in the midst of a difficult circumstance, let me gently remind you to go back to what you know about God. Open the Bible and find scriptures to cling to. Scriptures which reveal the heart and faithfulness of God. Remind yourself that God is your strength. He is your source of comfort. If someone is struggling to trust God, then it may be because you don't really know God. Questions will always arise out of our lives. The answers are always found in Him and His Word.
The whole emphasis in chapter 11 of John is on faith; I find some form of the word believe at least eight times in this account. Another theme is "the glory of God" (John 11:4, 40). In what Jesus said and did, He sought to strengthen the faith of three groups of people...the disciples, the sisters and the Jews.
The time line is interesting in this account. One day a messenger arrived with the sad news that Lazarus was sick. The messenger would have made the trip in one day if he had traveled fast. Jesus sends the man back with the encouraging message in John 11:4. Then Jesus waited two more days before He left for Bethany; and by the time He and His disciples arrived, Lazarus had been dead for four days. This means that Lazarus had died the very day the messenger left to contact Jesus!
Think what the message would convey to the sisters who are now grieving. Jesus was urging them to believe His Word no matter how discouraging the circumstances might appear. God's love for His own is not a pampering love; it is a perfecting love. After all, the Father loves His Son and yet the Father permitted His beloved Son to drink the cup of sorrow and experience the shame and pain of the Cross. When we find ourselves confronted by disease, disappointment, delay, and even death, our only encouragement is the Word of God. We must live by faith and not by sight.
What about our Lord's delay? Jesus wasn't waiting for Lazarus to die for he was already dead. Jesus lived on a divine timetable (v 9) and He was waiting for the Father to tell Him when to go to Bethany. The fact that Lazarus had been dead four days gave greater authenticity to the miracle and greater opportunity for people to believe, including His own disciples (v 15).
For the disciples, He did not say He was glad that His friend died, but that He was glad He had not been there. Now, you see, He could reveal to His disciples His mighty power. The result would be glory to God and the strengthening of their faith.
Now, it wasn't just the disciples He was concerned with but also Mary and Martha. I see each experience of suffering and trial ought to be increasing our faith, but this kind of spiritual growth isn't automatic. I believe we must respond positively to the ministry of the Word and the Holy Spirit. You see, Jesus had sent a promise to the two sisters (v.4), and now He would discover how they had received it.
I love how quick Martha was to affirm her faith in Christ (v 22), and Jesus responded by promising her that her brother would rise again. Don't you love it? He was thinking of the immediate situation, but she interpreted His words to mean the future resurrection in the last day. Here is another instance of people lacking spiritual perception and being unable to understand the words of Jesus.
Our Lord's reply is the fifth of the I AM statements. Now, understand that Jesus did not deny what Martha said about the future resurrection but in His I AM statement, the Lord completely transformed the doctrine of the resurrection and, in so doing, brought great comfort to Martha's heart. How He transformed the doctrine of the resurrection is a whole other post. [Aren't you glad? ;) ]
Martha was looking to the future, knowing that Lazarus would rise again and she would see him. Her friends were looking to the past and saying, "He could have prevented Lazarus from dying!" But do you see Jesus? He tried to center their attention on the present: wherever He is, God's resurrection power is available now (Romans 6:4; Gal 2:20; Phil 3:10). Martha did not hesitate to affirm her faith. She used three different titles for Jesus: Lord, Christ (Messiah), and Son of God. The words "I believe" are in the perfect tense, indicating a fixed and settled faith. "I have believed and I will continue to believe!"
But what about Mary? Mary is found three times in the Gospel record, and each time she is at the feet of Jesus. May I learn to be more like Mary in my every day! She sat at His feet and listened to His word; she fell at His feet and poured out her sorrow; and she came to His feet to give Him her praise and worship. Mary's only recorded words in the Gospels are given in John 11:32 and they echo what Martha had already said.
The Lord's response to Mary's weeping was to groan within and be moved with indignation. Why? I wonder, could it be at the ravages of sin in the world that He had created? Death is an enemy, and Satan uses the fear of death as a terrible weapon (Hebrews 2:14-18). No wonder Jesus was indignant!
I find the mystery of the Lord's incarnation so very interesting as is seen by His question in John 11:34. Jesus knew that Lazarus had died (v 11), but He had to ask where he was buried. Our Lord never used His divine powers when normal human means would suffice. Also, His was a silent weeping, not the loud lamenting done by the other mourners. (The Greek word is used nowhere else in the New Testament.) Do you wonder why He wept at all? Especially since He knew He was going to raise him from the dead? For me, it reveals the humanity of my Savior. In fact, I believe with Him being the perfect God-Man, Jesus probably experienced these things in a deeper way than we do.
Perhaps Jesus was weeping for Lazarus, as well as with the sisters, because He knew He was calling His friend from heaven and back into a wicked world where he would one day have to die again. Jesus had come down from heaven; He knew what Lazarus was leaving behind. The spectators thought His tears showed how He loved Lazarus. Nobody present really expected a miracle!!! Certainly nobody could accuse Jesus of "plotting" this event. The one person who declared her faith was Martha and she failed at the last minute. "Open the tomb??!" Jesus gently reminded her of the message He had sent at least three days before and He urged her to believe it. True faith relies on God's promises and thereby releases God's power. Martha relented, and the stone was rolled away.
Finally, the emphasis is shifted to the spectators who had come to comfort the sisters. Jesus paused to pray and thanked the Father that the prayer had already been heard. When had He prayed? Don't you just love it? He probably prayed when He received the message that His friend was sick. The Father then told Him what the plan was, and Jesus obeyed the Father's will. His prayer now was for the sake of the unbelieving spectators, that they might know that God had sent Him.
I read by some author somewhere that if Jesus had not named Lazarus when He shouted, He would have emptied the whole cemetery! Jesus called "Lazarus" and raised him from the dead. Now think about that. Since Lazarus was bound, he could not walk to the door of the tomb; so God's power must have carried him along.
Isn't this experience of Lazarus a good illustration of what happens to a sinner when he trusts the Saviour? Lazarus was dead, and all sinners are dead. He was decayed, because death and decay go together. All lost people are spiritually dead, but some are more "decayed" than others. No one can be "more dead" than another.
He was raised from the dead by the power of God, and all who trust Christ have been given new life and lifted out of the graveyard of sin (John 5:24). Lazarus was set free from the grave clothes (Col 3:1ff) and given new liberty. We find him seated with Christ at the table (John 12:2), and all believers are "seated with Christ" in heavenly places (Eph 2:6), enjoying spiritual food and fellowship.
Wow! Because of the great change in Lazarus, many people desired to see him; and his "living witness" was used by God to bring people to salvation (John 12:9-11). There are no recorded words of Lazarus in the Gospels, but his daily walk is enough to convince people that Jesus is the Son of God. Some did believe but, of course, there were some who reported what had happened in Bethany. These "informers" were so near the kingdom, yet there is no evidence that they believed. If the heart will not yield to truth, then the grace of God cannot bring salvation.
Chapter 11 reveals the deity of Jesus Christ and the utter depravity of the human heart. Miracles certainly reveal the power of God, but of themselves they cannot communicate the grace of God. Now we can look back in history during which man would do his worst and yet, God, would give His best!!!
Lazarus and Jesus' relationship must have been very, very close. Lazarus must have been a very special man, and not just to his sisters. He was dearly loved. The message sent by his sisters sums it up clearly, "Lord, the one you love is sick" (John 11:3, emphasis mine). I'm sure everyone, Lazarus' sisters and the disciples, thought that Jesus would get there in time to heal him. After all, Christ said to the disciples, "this sickness will not end in death" (John 11:4). However, God had something far more significant in store.
I'm sure if we had our own way we would just rather life functioned like a dot-to-dot drawing. Where all we needed to do was to go to each dot in the order they are meant. We have a sense of what the picture will be but the details don't fully emerge until all the dots are connected. But, that isn't the way God works, is it? God's will doesn't always proceed in a straight line. I don't always see a clear connection between point A and point B. Isn't it neat how God wraps up my good with your good and the good of both of us with the good of others? The plot lines of our individual stories weave together to form Him master plan. I guess what I'm trying to say is each of our stories matter to Jesus, just as the individual stories of Mary, Martha and Lazarus mattered to Him.
Why would Jesus allow such sorrow to come to a family who loved Him so much? Why would He withhold His power to heal when He had healed so often before? We are not guaranteed any explanations however, we are given a promise: "He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away" (Revelation 21:4).
For me, I tend to want rational reasons for everything. But, I have found out that God's love sometimes tarries for our good and His glory. Think of the blind man and the rabbis questioning of Jesus who had sinned, this man or his parents? Because of a fallen world, a man was born blind. But because of that man, Jesus Christ was glorified. We are cherished and highly loved.
Another lesson from Lazarus that I pull out is God's ways are not our ways, but His character is still dependable. If anyone is struggling to hang on in the midst of a difficult circumstance, let me gently remind you to go back to what you know about God. Open the Bible and find scriptures to cling to. Scriptures which reveal the heart and faithfulness of God. Remind yourself that God is your strength. He is your source of comfort. If someone is struggling to trust God, then it may be because you don't really know God. Questions will always arise out of our lives. The answers are always found in Him and His Word.
The whole emphasis in chapter 11 of John is on faith; I find some form of the word believe at least eight times in this account. Another theme is "the glory of God" (John 11:4, 40). In what Jesus said and did, He sought to strengthen the faith of three groups of people...the disciples, the sisters and the Jews.
The time line is interesting in this account. One day a messenger arrived with the sad news that Lazarus was sick. The messenger would have made the trip in one day if he had traveled fast. Jesus sends the man back with the encouraging message in John 11:4. Then Jesus waited two more days before He left for Bethany; and by the time He and His disciples arrived, Lazarus had been dead for four days. This means that Lazarus had died the very day the messenger left to contact Jesus!
Think what the message would convey to the sisters who are now grieving. Jesus was urging them to believe His Word no matter how discouraging the circumstances might appear. God's love for His own is not a pampering love; it is a perfecting love. After all, the Father loves His Son and yet the Father permitted His beloved Son to drink the cup of sorrow and experience the shame and pain of the Cross. When we find ourselves confronted by disease, disappointment, delay, and even death, our only encouragement is the Word of God. We must live by faith and not by sight.
What about our Lord's delay? Jesus wasn't waiting for Lazarus to die for he was already dead. Jesus lived on a divine timetable (v 9) and He was waiting for the Father to tell Him when to go to Bethany. The fact that Lazarus had been dead four days gave greater authenticity to the miracle and greater opportunity for people to believe, including His own disciples (v 15).
For the disciples, He did not say He was glad that His friend died, but that He was glad He had not been there. Now, you see, He could reveal to His disciples His mighty power. The result would be glory to God and the strengthening of their faith.
Now, it wasn't just the disciples He was concerned with but also Mary and Martha. I see each experience of suffering and trial ought to be increasing our faith, but this kind of spiritual growth isn't automatic. I believe we must respond positively to the ministry of the Word and the Holy Spirit. You see, Jesus had sent a promise to the two sisters (v.4), and now He would discover how they had received it.
I love how quick Martha was to affirm her faith in Christ (v 22), and Jesus responded by promising her that her brother would rise again. Don't you love it? He was thinking of the immediate situation, but she interpreted His words to mean the future resurrection in the last day. Here is another instance of people lacking spiritual perception and being unable to understand the words of Jesus.
Our Lord's reply is the fifth of the I AM statements. Now, understand that Jesus did not deny what Martha said about the future resurrection but in His I AM statement, the Lord completely transformed the doctrine of the resurrection and, in so doing, brought great comfort to Martha's heart. How He transformed the doctrine of the resurrection is a whole other post. [Aren't you glad? ;) ]
Martha was looking to the future, knowing that Lazarus would rise again and she would see him. Her friends were looking to the past and saying, "He could have prevented Lazarus from dying!" But do you see Jesus? He tried to center their attention on the present: wherever He is, God's resurrection power is available now (Romans 6:4; Gal 2:20; Phil 3:10). Martha did not hesitate to affirm her faith. She used three different titles for Jesus: Lord, Christ (Messiah), and Son of God. The words "I believe" are in the perfect tense, indicating a fixed and settled faith. "I have believed and I will continue to believe!"
But what about Mary? Mary is found three times in the Gospel record, and each time she is at the feet of Jesus. May I learn to be more like Mary in my every day! She sat at His feet and listened to His word; she fell at His feet and poured out her sorrow; and she came to His feet to give Him her praise and worship. Mary's only recorded words in the Gospels are given in John 11:32 and they echo what Martha had already said.
The Lord's response to Mary's weeping was to groan within and be moved with indignation. Why? I wonder, could it be at the ravages of sin in the world that He had created? Death is an enemy, and Satan uses the fear of death as a terrible weapon (Hebrews 2:14-18). No wonder Jesus was indignant!
I find the mystery of the Lord's incarnation so very interesting as is seen by His question in John 11:34. Jesus knew that Lazarus had died (v 11), but He had to ask where he was buried. Our Lord never used His divine powers when normal human means would suffice. Also, His was a silent weeping, not the loud lamenting done by the other mourners. (The Greek word is used nowhere else in the New Testament.) Do you wonder why He wept at all? Especially since He knew He was going to raise him from the dead? For me, it reveals the humanity of my Savior. In fact, I believe with Him being the perfect God-Man, Jesus probably experienced these things in a deeper way than we do.
Perhaps Jesus was weeping for Lazarus, as well as with the sisters, because He knew He was calling His friend from heaven and back into a wicked world where he would one day have to die again. Jesus had come down from heaven; He knew what Lazarus was leaving behind. The spectators thought His tears showed how He loved Lazarus. Nobody present really expected a miracle!!! Certainly nobody could accuse Jesus of "plotting" this event. The one person who declared her faith was Martha and she failed at the last minute. "Open the tomb??!" Jesus gently reminded her of the message He had sent at least three days before and He urged her to believe it. True faith relies on God's promises and thereby releases God's power. Martha relented, and the stone was rolled away.
Finally, the emphasis is shifted to the spectators who had come to comfort the sisters. Jesus paused to pray and thanked the Father that the prayer had already been heard. When had He prayed? Don't you just love it? He probably prayed when He received the message that His friend was sick. The Father then told Him what the plan was, and Jesus obeyed the Father's will. His prayer now was for the sake of the unbelieving spectators, that they might know that God had sent Him.
I read by some author somewhere that if Jesus had not named Lazarus when He shouted, He would have emptied the whole cemetery! Jesus called "Lazarus" and raised him from the dead. Now think about that. Since Lazarus was bound, he could not walk to the door of the tomb; so God's power must have carried him along.
Isn't this experience of Lazarus a good illustration of what happens to a sinner when he trusts the Saviour? Lazarus was dead, and all sinners are dead. He was decayed, because death and decay go together. All lost people are spiritually dead, but some are more "decayed" than others. No one can be "more dead" than another.
He was raised from the dead by the power of God, and all who trust Christ have been given new life and lifted out of the graveyard of sin (John 5:24). Lazarus was set free from the grave clothes (Col 3:1ff) and given new liberty. We find him seated with Christ at the table (John 12:2), and all believers are "seated with Christ" in heavenly places (Eph 2:6), enjoying spiritual food and fellowship.
Wow! Because of the great change in Lazarus, many people desired to see him; and his "living witness" was used by God to bring people to salvation (John 12:9-11). There are no recorded words of Lazarus in the Gospels, but his daily walk is enough to convince people that Jesus is the Son of God. Some did believe but, of course, there were some who reported what had happened in Bethany. These "informers" were so near the kingdom, yet there is no evidence that they believed. If the heart will not yield to truth, then the grace of God cannot bring salvation.
Chapter 11 reveals the deity of Jesus Christ and the utter depravity of the human heart. Miracles certainly reveal the power of God, but of themselves they cannot communicate the grace of God. Now we can look back in history during which man would do his worst and yet, God, would give His best!!!
41 Comments:
well, I can definetly tell this is close to your heart and youve put lots of thought into it...
I liked that you brought out that maybe Jesus was crying b/c He had to bring Lazarus back from Heaven and He knew how heartbreaking that could be....
Ive also heard that Jesus named Lazarus so all the cemetery wouldnt get up as well, but I dont like that explanation, it says that Jesus had no control over His power other than by human means (calling Lazarus' name)... but thats just me
By dangermama, at 8:03 AM
Well, I can see what you mean about Him not having control. I've never thought about it one way or another. But, maybe the dead ones would all want to be alive again (considering the alternative if they hadn't gone to heaven) so I could understand their desire to have the opportunity to come forth....wow! what a bunch of hogwash...just forget all that!
By Pilot Mom, at 11:46 AM
ha ha - Claire, that made me laugh...
By dangermama, at 11:50 AM
Well, I'm glad it amde you laugh! I've just rolled my eyes! :D
By Pilot Mom, at 12:10 PM
I'm reliving every scary moment in a bad sci-fi / horror movie!
So, this is bringing up a pretty interesting topic...
Do we die and stay dead until judgment day or do we instantly get called to heaven to wait with all the others? I always thought we went straight to heaven because you hear everyone say, "It's so sad they died but now they are with the Lord." Are they?
By HeyJules, at 12:38 PM
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
By dangermama, at 1:10 PM
I deleted the last comment b/c I typed something that was confusing
Jules, this is a huge theological debate...
the one theory that I tend to lean towards is that right now there are places that are similar to heaven and hell, but are not ultimately heaven and hell - paradise and hades... that is where you go when you die, based on if you are saved or not, and then when the final judgement comes about, we will be raised from the dead, be judged, a new heaven and hell will be created, and that is where we will go after we are judged....
I hope I explained that well enough
I know there are other theories out there floating around, maybe Claire and CJ have different thoughts on this as well, and Im not totally convinced on this, but for right now, its the one that makes the most sense to me...
feel free to ask me any questions
By dangermama, at 1:12 PM
Well, I do know that Paul says to be absent from the body (for a believer) is to be present with the Lord.
I do believe that there is an eternal heaven...the place we will live, as believers, after the final resurrection. Which means there is an intermediate heaven, which we generally refer to as heaven.When we die, as Christians, we do not go to the Heaven where we will live forever.
The intermediate heaven is not the place we were made for...the place where God promises to refashion for us to live forever.
In the intermediate heaven, we'll await the time of Christ's return to earth, our bodily resurrection, the final judgment, and the creation of the new heavens and New Earth.
In fact, the biblical teaching is richer...it tells us that there will be new heavens and a new earth, an entirely renewed creation, and we will live with God there.
Wow, there's so much more about this topic...I hope I'm not scaring you or shocking you...let me know... of course, the main thing is: can this be supported by scripture? Because if it can't be supported then it really doesn't matter.
By Pilot Mom, at 2:24 PM
Just think...go back to Adam and Eve. God could have taken A & E up to Heaven to visit with Him in His "world". Instead, He came down to walk with them in their world (Gen 3:8). Jesus says of anyone who would be His disciple, "My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him" (John 14:23). This is a pic of God's ultimate plan...not to take us up to live in a realm made for Him, but to come down and live with us IN THE REALM He MADE FOR US.
As Jesus in God incarnate, so the New Earth will be Heaven incarnate. Think of what Rev 21:3 tells us...God will relocate His people and come down from Heaven to the New Earth to live with them: "God Himself will be with them." Rather than our going up to live in God's home forever, GOD WILL COME DOWN to live in OUR home forever.
Mind blowing yet? :D
By Pilot Mom, at 2:32 PM
Is this TMI? ;D
By Pilot Mom, at 2:33 PM
Just found this verse.."The dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:7). At death, the human spirit goes eitehr to Heaven or Hell.
By Pilot Mom, at 2:44 PM
I think Claire and I are thinking the same thing (Ive just named mine differently)
*this is totally off, but my word verification is rchags, which totally makes me think "rich to rags"....
By dangermama, at 2:45 PM
*laughing* Addie, I saw that. Often I make "sense" out of that wv thing..now, that's a scary thought! Lol!
I think I must have totally shell shocked Jules...
I've been doing loads and loads of laundry so I just think...you know the thief on the Cross? The one in Paradise? And our next story...the rich man and Lazarus...well they are no longer in Paradise...That has been emptied when Christ was resurrected. The dead, like Abraham etc who came out and appeared to the people? They are now in this intermediate heaven. (for lack of a better word) If you and I could go visit paradise it is empty!
By Pilot Mom, at 3:08 PM
No, this is not TMI!
I've thought about this before (some) and I knew that Revelations said that HE would reform the earth and come to live with us, but I always wondered what happened between the time we died and the time of the second coming.
So, how is this so different from what the Catholics believe about Purgatory? Isn't one 'holding place' the same as another? Why do Protestants get so upset about the term Purgatory if we don't think we are going straight to the Father either? And, is this where all the final "refining" gets done???
Sick of me yet?
By HeyJules, at 3:08 PM
Because there is no "refining", you will get out of IH along with everyone else at the same time. We don't need to be praying for them to "be able to make it out" or whatever.
By Pilot Mom, at 3:17 PM
And, Christ is right there with us! while we are waiting!
By Pilot Mom, at 3:17 PM
Refining? Well, I guess that will go on into eternity as we learn more and more about our Lord.
By Pilot Mom, at 3:19 PM
Okay, now don't lose your mind - I'm tryint to put this all together.
We die and go to this Intermediate heaven and Christ is with us. The Holy Spirit is still down on earth doing His thing and the Father is in the eternal heaven getting ready for the second coming. Is that right?
By HeyJules, at 3:22 PM
Claire, why would the thief only be allowed to go to Paradise for 3 days? and where is reference that it is empty now.... curious...
Jules, for Catholics, from what I understand, purgatory is not based on salvation by grace through faith in Christ, but rather is a works based place - you must stay there if you didnt do enough good works here on earth, or until someone on earth purchases you a pardon from purgatory (well, I dont know if the church still sells these, but they used to), or if people on earth pray for you hard enough.... pretty much meaning that Christ's blood doesnt clean all your sins....
that was really a rough description though, but here is another link that may help explain better
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
I guess purgatory gets Protestant Christians all upset b/c it says that Christ's blood doesnt cover all sins, that heaven and hell are work based.... and that is not Scriptural at all
personally, I believe that the only "refining" you need will be here on earth, not in the afterlife... I dont see any Scriptures that go against this either
By dangermama, at 3:23 PM
I agree Addie...that's a very good description of purgatory in MHO.
I'll look up the references but when Jesus was buried in says He descended....I'm holding on the phone so let me look up verses..
By Pilot Mom, at 3:30 PM
well, thank you Claire...
I thought Jesus decended into Hell... I might be totally mistaken... no hurry, Im really busy at work at the moment
By dangermama, at 3:40 PM
Ok, Addie. I think I must have been reading that in some book and had not verified any scripture references for the information given. Because, I can't find anything to support it...so, I made a mistake. Sorry to have misled you all.
Now about Christ preaching in hell...are you refering to 1 Peter 3:19 "in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison?"
By Pilot Mom, at 4:02 PM
well, thats ok, I just knew that I didnt remember reading that before (but then I do forget alot of things, so I wasnt going to dismiss it as wrong either)... so Im still going with my first assumption that we are believing in the same theory (ive just given mine names of Paradise and Hades instead of an intermediate Heaven and Hell, even though it is how I think of them)
I dont remember - I may be mistaken as well, I will try to look into it when I get a minute...
I wish CJ were here, I would really love to here her take on things...
*hmmmm, wv thing is odirtd - like 'oh dirty' - find that funny... sorry Im stuck on these today, but theyve never really been anything for me other than a jumbled mess)
By dangermama, at 4:29 PM
Yeah, I miss CJ's take on this, too but this is helping! I just emailed Shannon and asked her about all this and she pointed me to some sermons my pastor did last year (funny that he covered this two weeks before I started attending church there!)
Maybe I'll work on my thoughts on this and take some time to read his sermons and look some stuff up in the good book and see what falls out on next week's Monday Night Thoughtball?
By HeyJules, at 4:37 PM
That sounds like a great idea, Jules! I'm sure you will get a lot of discussion from Catholics and Protestents alike!
By Pilot Mom, at 4:43 PM
yes, I agree - good idea Jules, and I will look into it in the meantime as well - good discussion today
By dangermama, at 5:03 PM
ok, well, its in the Apostles Creed, which I say at church every Sunday (and I hate that its become such habit that I didnt even recognize why it was familiar)... but I have researched the creed and why I say it, and what parts I do and dont say (in accordance with what I believe)
a good reference is http://www.creeds.net/ancient/descendit.htm
although I dont like all the verses at the end they give... I like the Matthew and the Ephesians ones the best for explanation purposes, the 1 Peter 3 one (which is the one Claire was asking about) is one Im not sure of, and the 1 Peter 4:6 reference they give, Im more inclined to believe that is talking about a spiritual death rather than a physical one...
I am more under the belief that Christ descended into Hell to carry the sins of the world there and defeat death/sin/hell altogether rather than preach the good news in Hell
By dangermama, at 5:25 PM
I found another good reference
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/002/31.74.html
it mentions revelation 20:11-15 - this is where I get the name Hades for intermediate hell, and of course Paradise comes from Jesus speaking to the thief on the cross...
ok, enough from me now
By dangermama, at 5:33 PM
Oh you guys would NOT have wanted me posting on this one.... I don't even believe in heaven and hell, at least not the way you're describing it. It's on my imaginary list to ask about when I see God.
By Claire Joy, at 8:08 PM
what, CJ - really, no Heaven or Hell? you really must expound.... even if its just in an email to me
and now a bit more from me.... I went to church last night and realized why that part of the Apostles Creed was not familiar - it is not part of the one we say, so no wonder it didnt automatically spring to mind that it belonged in there, but since I have studied it, it was familiar...
on that note, I do feel conflicted now b/c Luke 23:43 says Jesus said "TODAY you will be with me in Paradise" - so if He was in Paradise that day, then He couldnt be in Hades/Hell as well, could He?
By dangermama, at 7:31 AM
I used to say that Creed at my Lutheran church and remembered that phrase, too, Addie.
CJ: Write a post about heaven and hell...we want to know what you think! Oh and here's my question for you on that subject - When you go to ask God about heaven and hell, where exactly are you standing when you're talking to Him about it?
Not trying to be fascitious here - it just struck me as funny.
By HeyJules, at 8:33 AM
You guys seem to be getting adicted to my heresy... but when I have time to collect my thoughts I'll post more thoroughly. Right now the gist is: Sin, guilt, WE create our own heaven and hell, whether here on earth or in an eternal afterlife. Was , is and will be is all the same to God, right? Linear time as we know it has no real meaning to God, so whether our hell is here and now or later, it's still hell. Same with heaven. You already know I believe God will redeem all of His creation, (too many rebuttals to count on that issue) so whatever else I have to say should be minor blasphemy. :)
By Claire Joy, at 8:45 AM
Hahaha! Well, when you have time, I'd love to hear more about it.
I agree that sometimes we make our own hell here - that I can personally attest to!
By HeyJules, at 9:08 AM
I dont know about addicted, but I do like to read your beliefs b/c they are always so "outside the box" for me.... so if you ever get the time, Id love to hear more about it as well
*dont know if it makes a difference, but I believe Heaven is Heaven b/c you will actually be in the presence of the Trinity as a whole, and Hell is more the absence of God than a physical punishment
By dangermama, at 9:13 AM
Okay... I definitely believe that as well... being in the presence of God is Heaven and the absense of God is Hell.
By Claire Joy, at 9:43 AM
Wow! The one morning I get up and go right away without checking in here and I've missed the discussion!
CJ, I too, would love to hear more detail about heaven/hell. Please do post on it. I'm intrigued, like I have said before. In the Bible, Jesus says more than anyone else about Hell. He refers to it as a literal place and describes it in graphic terms---including raging fires and the worm that doesn't die. If one can't trust Christ for what He says, then why trust in Him for salvation? [truly I'm not trying to begin any attack] I hope you will include something about that in your post.
I'm also glad you are back in the discussions! I missed you yesterday!
Also, would you all pray for my mom? I had her in to the doc's on Tues for a follow-up appt. They found out she had a "small" kidney infection. She bagan antibiotics Tuesday night but since yesterday she has been running a high fever with terrible chills. I'm calling the doctor this morning at 9 am. Thanks ever so much!
By Pilot Mom, at 9:53 AM
I'm on it!
By HeyJules, at 9:56 AM
Claire, I do hope things get better... will definetely pray for her... let us know how things go
By dangermama, at 10:25 AM
Claire, what is your mother's name?
I know I can pray for Claire's Mom and God knows who I'm talking about, but it's nice to have a name.
By Claire Joy, at 11:51 AM
Ileen is her name...
It's all part of the kidney infection but the antibiotic is a slow acting one. She was allergic to the one they wanted to give to her originally.
Thanks ladies!
By Pilot Mom, at 4:06 PM
glad everything is ok then, or will be....
By dangermama, at 4:41 PM
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