Christian Chapter Chat

3.01.2006

Insightful Moment about Character

I was doing just fine with this chapter until I got to the last paragraph... and then I reeled. Gire's words (no matter how sincerely and good intentioned he meant them) smacked of all the self-righteous, holier-than-thou religious propaganda of my childhood. "That being conformed to his image is the glory you have predestined me for." For many years I tried to believe that, tried to live it, always failing, falling short, resenting the very man I was supposed to be conformed to... until I had my own St. Paul-like revelation. This was it: I was created in the image of God, not Jesus Christ. God apparently loves the diversity of His (Her) creation, otherwise there would not be so many variations on His creative theme. Jesus was the son of God, yes, absolutely. But I am a daughter, with other talents, other gifts, other things to accomplish in my brief time on earth. Can I learn from Jesus? Absolutely. Can I try to live a life that follows the spirit of his teachings? Of course. Can I ask for his intercession, thank him for his life and sacrifice, worship him as the only human son God actually fathered? You bet. But I cannot (and I believe now, should not) try to live his life over for him. I was not predestined for it, in fact I was not predestined for anything. God has given me free will in my destiny. It's my choice to accept His will or reject it.

I have no concrete idea exactly what God wants of me, but I listen. I read the teachings of Jesus and try to apply them in my life. I do the best I can with what I have to work with, and I believe (most of the time) that for God that is enough.

posted by Claire Joy at 9:30 AM

23 Comments:

  • Im getting tripped up on part of your post - do you believe God could be a woman?

    By Blogger dangermama, at 9:14 AM  

  • Im also curious from reading your writing... do you believe salvation comes from Christ?

    By Blogger dangermama, at 9:26 AM  

  • CJ, I totally get what you're saying. I didn't get tripped on that line like you did, but I can see why you did.

    I can understand the concept of pre-destination from the standpoint that God destined me into being but I'm with you - I can go with Him or against Him - it is always my choice. If it were not, what does that say about our love for our great Father?

    By Blogger HeyJules, at 9:34 AM  

  • Addie, I may be reading more into your question than you're asking, but, my answer has to be a resounding yes! and no... To explain, I do not believe (for example) that Buddists, Muslims, Jews, etc. are all going to hell because they don't believe in Jesus Christ as the son of God and their personal savior. In fact, I do not believe that any of God's children will be lost. Does that mean I think it's a free ride to heaven for everybody? No. I don't know what God plans at the last day, but I do believe that everything He has created will be redeemed. Do I think God is a woman? No. And Yes, I believe God has feminine aspects we don't recognize in our patriarcal language.

    By Blogger Claire Joy, at 10:00 AM  

  • I do not believe that any of God's children will be lost.

    Yikes! This is quite contrary to Scripture.

    This was it: I was created in the image of God, not Jesus Christ.

    Christ IS God.

    And Romans says:

    For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

    This is Scripture - not exactly "self-righteous, holier-than-thou religious propaganda."

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:20 AM  

  • I can understand the concept of pre-destination from the standpoint that God destined me into being but I'm with you - I can go with Him or against Him - it is always my choice. If it were not, what does that say about our love for our great Father?

    OK, think about this for a minute -God 'destined you into being,' but that's a far as His sovereignty goes in your life? He created you then left you to flounder? How loving would He be if He actually did that?

    Jules, there are a slew of verses that indicate quite the opposite - that He indeed intervenes; He even prevented Abimelech (Genesis) from sinning against Him.

    I'm afraid we like to 'think' everything is our choice, but thank God in His mercy, it is not.

    Let me know if you want Scripture back-up; I won't list everything out in the comments.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:31 AM  

  • That is your truth. And I accept your right to believe it and evangelize it. But heresy, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. (Galileo was condemned as a heretic for believing the earth rotated around the sun.) The Pope apologized a few centuries later.

    By Blogger Claire Joy, at 11:39 AM  

  • CJ, wow! Your post has my mind jumping from one thought to another at the speed of light! Lol! :)

    The first thing that jumped out was the quote of Gire's that you have a problem with. How do you reconcile your thoughts with Romans 8:29, "For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son....?"

    There are so many opinions out there in the world today I always have to go back to God's Word for my standard. We were created in Jesus' image...because He is God. He is the physical manifestation of God (Col 2:9).

    You WERE predestined, CJ, for good works...Eph 2:10, "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." Even our spiritual gifts are given to us, by God, to enable us to accomplish those gifts.

    I guess what I'm really asking is how do you reconcile your beliefs to God's Word?

    With the rich man (and Lazarus) already 'not in heaven' why would we think no one else would be spared when God makes it so clear? Heb 9:27, "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment."

    Please, understand CJ, that I am in no way trying to argue with you but I am trying to understand where your belief system is coming from.

    By Blogger Pilot Mom, at 11:42 AM  

  • Oops, sorry, I didn't realize that Gayla had jumped on board and used the same verse as I! :)

    By Blogger Pilot Mom, at 11:45 AM  

  • That is your truth.

    Actually no, it is biblical truth.

    So like Claire, I'd be interested to hear how your thoughts square up with the Word.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:49 AM  

  • That's easy. I do not believe that the Bible is the literal word of God. I believe it is a collection of inspired writings (inspired by God) collected, compiled and translated by human beings to make sense of the world as they knew it. That it still speaks to us today is evidence of its truth and validity in our lives. I understand that many Christians disagree and believe that it is the literal Word of God. When we get to heaven we can ask God, but my guess is by then it (the argument) won't matter.

    By Blogger Claire Joy, at 12:26 PM  

  • So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you do not believe in absolute truth, but rather, relative truth?

    By Blogger Pilot Mom, at 12:30 PM  

  • Oh, I am SO not getting into this one.

    I learned my lesson on Monday Night Thoughtball...

    By Blogger HeyJules, at 12:53 PM  

  • No, I don't think it's a matter of absolute vs. relative. I simply do not believe that any human being (except maybe Jesus) can know the absolute truth of anything until we are reunited again with God. "We see through the glass darkly... but then face to face." For now, we do the best we can.

    By Blogger Claire Joy, at 1:48 PM  

  • Gayla and Claire: You know how much I value your leadership and your guidance but CJ just took the words right out of my mouth. Do I think the bible is the inerrant word of God? I sure do try to. But..I also believe we see through the glasses darkly and continually look for God to pull back the sunglass coating and show me the light.

    By Blogger HeyJules, at 1:56 PM  

  • No doubt the Word tells us we see dimly now; I agree. The complete verse:

    For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

    This doesn't negate the fact, though, that the Bible itself is 'Truth.' That we cannot fully understand it all also doesn't negate the fact that it is Truth.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 3:20 PM  

  • I've been gone this afternoon having lunch with a dear friend and then running errands. It's beautiful here today...no wind and at least 68 maybe 70 degrees. At least that is what it feels like to me! ;)

    This is so intriqueing to me, CJ. One reason is because I can't ever remember meeting a Christian who didn't believe in the inerrancy of God's Word. So, if you don't mind may I ask you some questions regarding specific verses? I promise after these questions I'll let it drop...still friends? :)

    Now in 2 Timoty 3:16 it states, "All scripture is given by *inspiration* of God, and is profitable for teaching, for reproof....etc.." The word I want to focus on is "inspiration". The Greek word is Theopneustos, meaning God-breathed. This affirms that God is the author of Scripture and that Scripture is the product of His creative breath. Do you believe He breathed life into Adam with His breath? Do you believe that He spoke and the universe was created?

    For me I don't think I would trust a God who could not oversee His Work to make sure it was without error. (I'm talking the origianl.) For then He would have no control over any other aspect of His creation...if He could have even created His creation.

    If it is correct, then why did Christ use the Word, verbatim when He quoted Scripture? There were specific commands to write down the word of the Lord (Ex 17:14; Jer. 30:2) And 2 Peter 1:21 which says, "For no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." One other verse which talks of the writers being concious of writing God's Word is 1 Cor 2:13, "...which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words."

    Thanks CJ for taking time to respond to my verses. I think I maybe come from a different direction in believeing the trustworthiness of God's character and the teaching of Christ. It seems to be very important to God (His Word does) because otherwise He would not have said "until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished" (Matt 5:18).

    By Blogger Pilot Mom, at 6:37 PM  

  • Claire, I really don't see much point in continuing this discussion over the Bible's literal vs. metaphorical interpretation. I am certainly not the first Christian to believe this about the Bible, (St. Augustine's position was not to take every passage literally) but I may be the first you've met. As far as I'm concerned, we are still friends, still Christians, and still trying to do God's will.

    By Blogger Claire Joy, at 5:48 AM  

  • Claire, very good argument - and by argument, I mean the biblical support you put forth.

    I, for one, appreciate the fact that in discussions, you are willing and able to use scriptural support for what you believe. As Believers, we'd sure better know what we believe and why we believe it. It's always interesting that so many people rely on their own human opinions and feelings - things I don't put much stock into. And people choose to believe what they believe simply 'because.'

    Claire J, just for clarity - the discussion appears to be more on the truthfulness of the Word, rather than a literal vs metaphorical interpretation.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 9:00 AM  

  • Gayla, if that is how you see it, then I don't understand your insistance to keep harping at this issue. I certainly believe there is truth in the Bible. I also have stated that I believe it. The inaccuracy of some of the details stand for themselves. And yes, I could quote Scripture on this, and no I don't feel the need to do so. You know your Bible very well, it seems to me. However, if you (or Claire) would feel better if I deleted my post on this chapter, I'm also happy to do that. Frankly, I have better things to do than keep posting replies to questions I've already answered.

    By Blogger Claire Joy, at 10:11 AM  

  • Oh CJ, no, please don't delete your post! And, that is fine with me if you choose to end the discussion. Please believe me when I say I had no intention of offending. And, yes, you are the first I've met in this area...and that is why I was seeking clarification.

    Please don't feel like you need to qualify your thoughts and positions. I apologize for any discomfort I may have caused you. I certainly didn't mean for it to come across like I was attacking you.

    Thanks, CJ. I appreciate you.

    By Blogger Pilot Mom, at 11:13 AM  

  • No offense taken (by any of you). But I am weary of this discussion.

    By Blogger Claire Joy, at 11:23 AM  

  • Okay, I see while I was busy compiling the latest post you all made nice so go read it and let's all move on!

    By Blogger HeyJules, at 11:25 AM  

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